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Asiana crash video: Firefighters saw injured girl before she was run over
Teenager Ye Meng Yuan didn't die when a plane crashed at San Francisco International Airport last July. She actually survived the impact, only to die minutes later after a fire truck ran over her. Now, newly released video suggests emergency workers saw Ye's injured body on the ground before she was fatally struck -- challenging earlier claims that she was accidentally run over because she may have been covered in firefighting foam. In the footage, one firefighter tried to stop an… (www.cnn.com) Altro...Sort type: [Top] [Newest]
[This poster has been suspended.]
That was exactly the point they were at, with the fire increasing in intensity.
I was struck by 2 observations:
1) How fast the trucks were racing to the scene of the crashed plane, at the same exact time that everyone else was literally 'running [away] for their lives'.
This is one of those few times, when people described as running for tier lives, actually are.
2. How close one or more firefighters were to the girl's 'body' laying unconscious or dead on the ground near the plane. They had every opportunity to check her, if such an act was thought to be necessary and prudent.
I was struck by 2 observations:
1) How fast the trucks were racing to the scene of the crashed plane, at the same exact time that everyone else was literally 'running [away] for their lives'.
This is one of those few times, when people described as running for tier lives, actually are.
2. How close one or more firefighters were to the girl's 'body' laying unconscious or dead on the ground near the plane. They had every opportunity to check her, if such an act was thought to be necessary and prudent.
It's not okay for a fire fighter to kill someone by running over them with their fire truck getting to a fire in order to save someone else for no reason.
They didn't run over getting to the fire. They ran over her while they were aggressively trying to cut down the fire, as they drove circuits around the plane spraying foam on the plane. She only got run over after they couldn't see her anymore under the foam.
This video actually shows a lot of care to NOT run over her.
But since there were not sufficient rescuers for the large number of victims, and no rescuers were available to help her before the firefighter got into fire suppression mode and before she got covered with foam, she was an unfortunate casualty in the desperate attempt to minimize casualties from the disaster.
Delaying fire suppression while rescuers
This video actually shows a lot of care to NOT run over her.
But since there were not sufficient rescuers for the large number of victims, and no rescuers were available to help her before the firefighter got into fire suppression mode and before she got covered with foam, she was an unfortunate casualty in the desperate attempt to minimize casualties from the disaster.
Delaying fire suppression while rescuers
Delaying fire suppression while rescuers left the groups other victims scattered across the airfield to try to save a dead or near dead unconscious girl would cause unnecessary risk. A large explosion from the plane could kill many firefighters and destroy necessary fire apparatus.
If she were visible after foam application, she wouldn't have been run over and rescuers would eventually get to her to confirm death or to render an attempt a life saving treatment. AFTER the plane was covered in foam, no longer on fire, and nor in immediate danger of exploding.
You must remember that the events I describe, all happened in the first few minites after crash - from about 3 minutes to about 15 minutes.
No one injured the girl intentionally. The firefighters' contribution to injuries happened as a consequence of the attempt to mitigate the effects of the disaster.
The pilots' contribution to her injuries was a result of their dramatic failure to perform the most basic skills of their profession.
The firefighters put themselves in danger to save others.* The pilots put everyone in danger before running away and saving themselves.
* There is no obligation for firefighters to put themselves in danger. The first thing first responders are taugh is not tonput themselves in danger. That so many responders put themselves in danger everyday is considered heroic and brave by some and foolish by others. Just because they put tmemselves in danger's way that day, does not further mean they must accept all risk without trying to mitigate the risk.
Showing up to a plane fire is a huge risk. Putting out the fire quickly before other concerns is a reasonable act.
That the girl lost her life is tragic. The firefighters were doing their jobs (while trying not to die). The pilots didn't do their jobs (then ran away to save their hides).
If she were visible after foam application, she wouldn't have been run over and rescuers would eventually get to her to confirm death or to render an attempt a life saving treatment. AFTER the plane was covered in foam, no longer on fire, and nor in immediate danger of exploding.
You must remember that the events I describe, all happened in the first few minites after crash - from about 3 minutes to about 15 minutes.
No one injured the girl intentionally. The firefighters' contribution to injuries happened as a consequence of the attempt to mitigate the effects of the disaster.
The pilots' contribution to her injuries was a result of their dramatic failure to perform the most basic skills of their profession.
The firefighters put themselves in danger to save others.* The pilots put everyone in danger before running away and saving themselves.
* There is no obligation for firefighters to put themselves in danger. The first thing first responders are taugh is not tonput themselves in danger. That so many responders put themselves in danger everyday is considered heroic and brave by some and foolish by others. Just because they put tmemselves in danger's way that day, does not further mean they must accept all risk without trying to mitigate the risk.
Showing up to a plane fire is a huge risk. Putting out the fire quickly before other concerns is a reasonable act.
That the girl lost her life is tragic. The firefighters were doing their jobs (while trying not to die). The pilots didn't do their jobs (then ran away to save their hides).
It is not ok for a pilot to kill someone by botching basic piloting skills, and to put passengers in a situation where they get run over by a fire truck.
[This poster has been suspended.]
I find it ironic that you are condemning a pilot who made a mistake (albeit a big one) while giving a pass to a fire truck driver who made a mistake (albeit a big one).
By your logic a policeman, while responding to a bank robbery, is free to shoot indiscriminately at said robbers without regard for any bystanders. If he kills someone it is blamed on the robbers. But that's not the way the world works.
By your logic a policeman, while responding to a bank robbery, is free to shoot indiscriminately at said robbers without regard for any bystanders. If he kills someone it is blamed on the robbers. But that's not the way the world works.
[This poster has been suspended.]
No, it is not how it works. If a police officer shoots an unarmed civilian while stopping a crime, the Department will be writing a check. If the Police engage in high speed pursuit and kill an innocent bystander, the Department will be writing a check. And if the Fire Department runs over an innocent bystander while responding to a call, the Department will be writing a check. That IS how it works.
It had been proven that the driver knew she was there. I say he simply forgot she was there. You had an issue with that. At the same time you say no one would knowingly run someone over. Well, which is it?
I'm not saying anyone should go to prison here. All I'm saying is the fire department is directly responsible for the girl's death and they should be made to pay.
It had been proven that the driver knew she was there. I say he simply forgot she was there. You had an issue with that. At the same time you say no one would knowingly run someone over. Well, which is it?
I'm not saying anyone should go to prison here. All I'm saying is the fire department is directly responsible for the girl's death and they should be made to pay.
[This poster has been suspended.]
It's not all about the money but that's all the family has left. They can't get their daughter back so money is the only alternative.
Once again you are talking about criminal liability. I am talking about civil liability. Nobody is saying the truck driver should go to jail. Just pay.
You mentioned in another response that you would intervene if faced with an armed robber in a store. Just so you know, if you shoot but miss the robber and kill the clerk, get a lawyer because nobody will say you were in the right. And you will be held criminally and civilly responsible.
Once again you are talking about criminal liability. I am talking about civil liability. Nobody is saying the truck driver should go to jail. Just pay.
You mentioned in another response that you would intervene if faced with an armed robber in a store. Just so you know, if you shoot but miss the robber and kill the clerk, get a lawyer because nobody will say you were in the right. And you will be held criminally and civilly responsible.
"It's not all about the money "..." Just pay." Then, what else is it about.
As for this being the "only alternative", you will note that no claim has been filed against the pilot in a Korean court. Do you wonder why?
If you were the passenger in a vehicle I was driving when I rolled it on highway and you were ejected, run over by another vehicle and fatally injured, who would be sued? Me, the driver of the vehicle who hit you, the other driver's employer, or the auto manufacturer?
As for this being the "only alternative", you will note that no claim has been filed against the pilot in a Korean court. Do you wonder why?
If you were the passenger in a vehicle I was driving when I rolled it on highway and you were ejected, run over by another vehicle and fatally injured, who would be sued? Me, the driver of the vehicle who hit you, the other driver's employer, or the auto manufacturer?
Flawed analogy. If you would have said ejected, lying by the side of the road, was noticed and pointed out by the fire department then run over by the same fire truck. I would sue the fire department for every penny their insurance company had.
What you seem to miss is that several fire apparatus started encircling the plane, going round and round the airplane spraying foam.
Even if one driver had seen her initially, the other drivers had not. Even the driver that had been told about the body, after icrling the plane several times could not properly identify the location of the body under the foam.
The firefighters are also trained not too move a casualty. If you move them, and they die, they'll get blamed. Plus, moving the body could makeni harder to collect evidence for an investigation.
So you're damned I you do, damned if you don't.
They went about doin their job.
The most important fact is that the girl was run over while the firefighters were in the course of doing their fire-fighting duties. This while they were endangering their lives.
They made efforts to avoid her initially. But their lives were on the line. They had to get that fire under control. If all the rescue vehicles were not tied up with 300+ other victims, they'd likely have moved her and handed her off to a rescue crew.
In the circumstances, they couldn't spare any firefighters to babysit any one person. There just aren't sufficient persoannel on site at an airport ready to respond to a major airliner crash and equipped and trained to be able to remain in such close proximity to a burning plane. No airport has enough. It is impossible to staff up sufficiently to provide each crash victim their own emergency responder to reach them within 5 minites and be able to stay with them.
So mvong a victim without an objective is out. Accidently running over them is also quite unpleasant.
So, I'm guessing that airports may begin to train and the NTSB may recommend that bodies (dead or alive) encountered in the immediate fire response zone, should be marked (when pissible) with reflective cones and/or a tall self-standing marker/ pole/ flag, so that maneuvering fire trucks can avoid accidently running over a body, no matter if alive or not.
Money will not bring back the girl to their family. The families are better served by a proper review and improvements to procedures, that are shared around the world.
The only matter that is improved with a high monetary award or settlement is the attorney's bank account. The family would gladly give up any an all claims in exchange for additional time with thier cherished daughter. The attorney is happier with the girl dead than alive. That is the difference.
If there was a criminal act, charge it. Doing so would be a better deterent than any governmental or societal payment in a civil case. The only ones whose behavior may rise to the level of criminal recklessness is the pilots at the controls of the plane. The FO was the only one (of the four) seemingly concerned with thier sink rate, abs called it out repeatedly.
I am not shocked by the firefighters' behavior. They were risking their lives to save passengers. them they were risking to lives to put out the fire and keep their colleagues from being killed.
The pilots were only doing their job. Unfortunately they weren't nearly as good at their job.
The rescuers were able to get to everyone but one. Of all the others, all but 2 others survived.
That survival rate is due to some impressive systems that worked. The first level of defense is the plane's crew. The pilots failed in their role of landing safely. then the cabin cres took over in evacuating all the passengers (even if having to ask permission of the PIC twice, which delayed the evac. The pilots did assist the cabin crew in getting passengers out.
The next line of defense is the airport emergency response crews (police, firefighters, rescuers and paramedics) these can assist in evacuation and initiating life saving treatment.
Next there is a system to transport the patients to the appropriate medical facilities.
Next there are med facilities with trauma centers that can adequately desk with immediately life threatening traumatic injuries. Lastly these facilities have critical care teams that can continue to follow the mist critical patients' condition while being treated at hospital.
This entire chain has been quite effective in minimizing the loss of life. The airport firefighters are an essential element in this chain.
The greatest fault to this girl (and the other two who died) plus the many passengers who were severely injured and crippled for life was caused by the pilots. Accidents happen, even while trying to save lives.
The pilots are bit condemned for their own accident, but for their lack of proficiency in the very skills that professional pilots need to have, that combined catastrophically with one or more mistake(s) made by the pilot(s) in the last 2 minutes of flight. Proper piloting would've allowed the pilots to recover from their mistake(s).
The firefighter acted aggressively to save lives by putting out the fire. I can't give the pilots a similar pass. There is no similar mitigating factor. In fact, there is no excuse for failing to safely land a perfectly functioning airplane in perfect weather.
Let's just agree the two are very different in terns of culpability and of mitigation.
I can't be too excited about a large payout. It will only be paid ultimately by the taxpayers of SanFrsncisco and the passengers of SFO, who have no culpability in the matter (even though they'll be the ultimate payers). Large governmental entities are usually self-insured.
No matter the civil psyment(s) if any, the rescuers would always try to improve their performance, including learning from mistakes that have happened in earlier incidents (anywhere in the world). Thus would happen with a payout or without. So, the payout does not provide a societal benefit.
Even if one driver had seen her initially, the other drivers had not. Even the driver that had been told about the body, after icrling the plane several times could not properly identify the location of the body under the foam.
The firefighters are also trained not too move a casualty. If you move them, and they die, they'll get blamed. Plus, moving the body could makeni harder to collect evidence for an investigation.
So you're damned I you do, damned if you don't.
They went about doin their job.
The most important fact is that the girl was run over while the firefighters were in the course of doing their fire-fighting duties. This while they were endangering their lives.
They made efforts to avoid her initially. But their lives were on the line. They had to get that fire under control. If all the rescue vehicles were not tied up with 300+ other victims, they'd likely have moved her and handed her off to a rescue crew.
In the circumstances, they couldn't spare any firefighters to babysit any one person. There just aren't sufficient persoannel on site at an airport ready to respond to a major airliner crash and equipped and trained to be able to remain in such close proximity to a burning plane. No airport has enough. It is impossible to staff up sufficiently to provide each crash victim their own emergency responder to reach them within 5 minites and be able to stay with them.
So mvong a victim without an objective is out. Accidently running over them is also quite unpleasant.
So, I'm guessing that airports may begin to train and the NTSB may recommend that bodies (dead or alive) encountered in the immediate fire response zone, should be marked (when pissible) with reflective cones and/or a tall self-standing marker/ pole/ flag, so that maneuvering fire trucks can avoid accidently running over a body, no matter if alive or not.
Money will not bring back the girl to their family. The families are better served by a proper review and improvements to procedures, that are shared around the world.
The only matter that is improved with a high monetary award or settlement is the attorney's bank account. The family would gladly give up any an all claims in exchange for additional time with thier cherished daughter. The attorney is happier with the girl dead than alive. That is the difference.
If there was a criminal act, charge it. Doing so would be a better deterent than any governmental or societal payment in a civil case. The only ones whose behavior may rise to the level of criminal recklessness is the pilots at the controls of the plane. The FO was the only one (of the four) seemingly concerned with thier sink rate, abs called it out repeatedly.
I am not shocked by the firefighters' behavior. They were risking their lives to save passengers. them they were risking to lives to put out the fire and keep their colleagues from being killed.
The pilots were only doing their job. Unfortunately they weren't nearly as good at their job.
The rescuers were able to get to everyone but one. Of all the others, all but 2 others survived.
That survival rate is due to some impressive systems that worked. The first level of defense is the plane's crew. The pilots failed in their role of landing safely. then the cabin cres took over in evacuating all the passengers (even if having to ask permission of the PIC twice, which delayed the evac. The pilots did assist the cabin crew in getting passengers out.
The next line of defense is the airport emergency response crews (police, firefighters, rescuers and paramedics) these can assist in evacuation and initiating life saving treatment.
Next there is a system to transport the patients to the appropriate medical facilities.
Next there are med facilities with trauma centers that can adequately desk with immediately life threatening traumatic injuries. Lastly these facilities have critical care teams that can continue to follow the mist critical patients' condition while being treated at hospital.
This entire chain has been quite effective in minimizing the loss of life. The airport firefighters are an essential element in this chain.
The greatest fault to this girl (and the other two who died) plus the many passengers who were severely injured and crippled for life was caused by the pilots. Accidents happen, even while trying to save lives.
The pilots are bit condemned for their own accident, but for their lack of proficiency in the very skills that professional pilots need to have, that combined catastrophically with one or more mistake(s) made by the pilot(s) in the last 2 minutes of flight. Proper piloting would've allowed the pilots to recover from their mistake(s).
The firefighter acted aggressively to save lives by putting out the fire. I can't give the pilots a similar pass. There is no similar mitigating factor. In fact, there is no excuse for failing to safely land a perfectly functioning airplane in perfect weather.
Let's just agree the two are very different in terns of culpability and of mitigation.
I can't be too excited about a large payout. It will only be paid ultimately by the taxpayers of SanFrsncisco and the passengers of SFO, who have no culpability in the matter (even though they'll be the ultimate payers). Large governmental entities are usually self-insured.
No matter the civil psyment(s) if any, the rescuers would always try to improve their performance, including learning from mistakes that have happened in earlier incidents (anywhere in the world). Thus would happen with a payout or without. So, the payout does not provide a societal benefit.
You, or more properly your estate in the above case, could sue for any amount imagined. Due to Calif tort reform (I mention this because this will be the jurisdiction), pain and suffering awards are limited to 250K. Lawyer gets 1/3 up front. At this point there is no suit- just a complaint.
FYI, there is case law where plaintiff prevailed against all entities I mentioned.
FYI, there is case law where plaintiff prevailed against all entities I mentioned.
[This poster has been suspended.]