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  • 36

Challenger 601 down in Mexico

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A Bombardier Challenger has crashed while returning from KLAS just over nothern Mexico. (www.mirror.co.uk) Altro...

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shenghaohan
2019 isn’t a lucky year it seems...
KobeHunte
Kobe Hunte 1
I agree with you on that one. First came the 737s, and now all of these crashes.
richardorgill
I know that crew...RIP
TorstenHoff
Fox News has a story with a picture of the wreckage. The aircraft doesn't appear to have had much horizontal speed at the time of impact since the debris is all in one spot and there are no obvious gouges in the terrain leading to the wreck.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/mexico-plane-crash-las-vegas
SmittySmithsonite
Yeah, that is odd, for sure - was like it was parked there, and burned. Tail is upside down, but I can't tell if the rest of it is ... Something strange going on there ...
Relics
Relics 2
Condolences to the family and friends. So the idea is this may be another weather related accident?
tljax
tljax 3
ADS-B data shows rapid climb in 4 seconds from 40600 to 45675 followed by a 20k fpm descent before data fade.
sparkie624
sparkie624 7
If that is accurate and it probably is, he probably hit an updraft and flamed out both engines....
With no chance of a relight! After that... He is pretty much a flying coffin! At that altitude, that a/c cannot light it's APU, so he was on battery power with very little of anything else!
Highflyer1950
Always better to fly around weather rather than try to top it near the ac service ceiling. I’ll take a rough ride in thicker air and add a few minutes by avoiding it where possible. Even when flying in the high 40’s I still give the big Cb’s a lot of room.
bentwing60
bentwing60 3
Amen, it's another reason we are still here.
cassious
cassious 2
Doubtful.. At FL400 and above, there would be plenty of time to get at least one engine running. Even after the shock of the silence has faded...
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
Some more homework, core lock is a thing for cf34's but probably not applicable in this instance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701
sparkie624
sparkie624 2
Side Note, if he really did go up as high as the ADSB data lists, then a Core Lock is highly probable!
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
From the link below and looking at the Data:

379 436 40,925 2,083 Climbing

Last documented altitude was almost 41,000 feet and still climbing at over 2000 feet per minute!
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
That was the incident I was referring to... I personally saw the FDR Data and heard the CVR! The crew were having a Joy Ride and paid the ultimate price for it...
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
The RAT would or should have auto-deployed.
bentwing60
bentwing60 3
Your ADS-B numbers for the climb would yield a climb rate of over 76,000 fpm which would indicate a vertical gust that would rip the wings off if encountered at any altitude, and many orders of magnitude above part 25 certification requirements. Doesn't matter, but the math doesn't work with the picture of the airplane with the burned up wings in view.
FrankHarvey
If altitude is determined by barometric pressure and not by other means, eg radar, in areas of significant atmospheric disturbances altimeter readings may be unreliable. A 5000 foot climb in 4 seconds is remarkable and could induce excessive g on the souls on board and the airframe.
FrankHarvey
Ignore this post, it seems others (see below) already covered it.
KobeHunte
Kobe Hunte 1
your comment still was more informative and helped me to get the gist of it more.. Thank you
sgbelverta
Do smaller jets have flight data recorders? If so, these will tell an sad tale. But it should be very educational.
bentwing60
bentwing60 4
multi-engine turbine powered aircraft with 10 or more legal passenger seats must have a flight data recorder per the regs.
btweston
btweston 0
Does that include a CVR?
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
The CVR I believe follows the same rules, so it should have one.
cassious
cassious 1
If the aircraft was on a 135 certificate, then it is required to have a CVR.
bentwing60
bentwing60 -1
If it was a part 91 airplane it was required to have a CVR. What other kind is there? The 135 is an operational addendum. Do your own homework.

https://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-609-FAR.shtml
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
I believe that a/c should have one then.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Some yes, some no....
bentwing60
bentwing60 2
https://flightaware.com/squawks/view/1/y_days/popular/72886/Plane_crash_at_Kerrville_TX#226716

The picture in my link is the point! Can't hit that flat without an unrecoverable stall with an aft CG. the Baron didn't have any fuel in it, the Challenger did, but not much. And 15 degrees right would have cleared the weather, yet he chose to try to out climb it. Challengers ain't home sick angels, ergo you turn, not climb for tall weather. Got a CL60 type in my pocket with a few hours of doin it. This aircraft is registered to a US trustee, since 2017, with an N number and spent 98% of it's time flying around central and northern MX. And probably on somebodies US 135 certificate. It smells at least and if it really had 10 pax., then it wasn't legal without a FDR. The US customs departure form lists 12 souls, crew of 3, 9 pax. Many discrepancies in the "food editor" reporting so far but at any rate I hope the DEA just lost some persons of interest. If not, RIP.
TorstenHoff
There are two things that immediately stood out to me when I saw the flight track and crash site photo — the severe weather in the immediate vicinity, and the fact that they seemed to have fallen out of the sky and pancaked. There is a big bush behind the right wing that would have been taken out if they had had any forward momentum. They seem to have gotten into a stall / flat spin and never recovered.
siriusloon
siriusloon 6
That happened with the #1 prototype during early flight tests at Mojave. It had a spin 'chute and it was deployed, but didn't help enough, so the crew bailed out. Unfortunately, one of them got caught in the spin 'chute and was killed.
sparkie624
sparkie624 4
There is certainly evidence that he had a Steep, Flat Approach to the Crash Site... It looks like he was at or close to his service ceiling (41,000). The CL60 has a very close envelope for speeds at that altitude. I know of a couple of pilots who hot dogged a CRJ-200 at 43000' flamed out both engines and died at the crash site.... I too agree that they should have turned, as the weather was not that far south of them and would not have cost them much time.

Just thinking back to an Great Old Friend, Preacher (RIP) who loved flying the CL60/200's... I am sure he could have given us some good insight.

[This comment has been downvoted. Show anyway.]

Cansojr
Cansojr 5
You should not swear in your Squawks, keep it clean. Stick to your point without swearing. Thank you and a good day to you sir.
KobeHunte
Kobe Hunte 1
agreed!
KobeHunte
Kobe Hunte 1
seriously? What you are saying makes no sense. Get a grip.
strickerje
strickerje 0
Only thing I can figure is he responded to a comment that got deleted.

sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Not deleted... It was Down voted!
strickerje
strickerje 0
I see nighflyer’s comment was downvoted, but you can still click to view it, and it reads as though it’s responding to another comment that isn’t there at all. At least, that’s the only way it makes sense to me. :)
strickerje
strickerje 0
Oh never mind - the line he’s referring to is in bentwing’s post; I just missed it.
Loynaz31
Im.so.sorry.
cassious
cassious 1
15 right and we wouldn't be having this conversation. I have no idea what this crew were thinking.
mjlewis
N601Vh - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N601VH/history/20190505/2100Z/KLAS/MMMY
Moviela
I saw the flight plan showed the pilots license "pending." Why are these people flying passengers before their ticket is issued? Reminds me of the Lear that crashed in Mexico with the pilot having a private rating.

Time for law enforcement to be sure only those qualified have access to US runways.
royalbfh
royalbfh 3
umm, that would be the Customs Decal that is pending.....
royalbfh
royalbfh 3
and I see that on the pilots line, it doesn't mean that he does not have a license
cassious
cassious 3
Probably a 61.75 foreign based US pilot certificate which is required to fly N reg aircraft internationally. There is a bit of a lag time from when the temp is issued until the permanent certificate comes with the cert number.

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