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Delta Airlines jet runs off runway at Dane County Regional Airport

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Boeing 737-800 jet operated by Delta Airlines slid off a snow-covered runway Monday afternoon at the Dane County Regional Airport, authorities said. (host.madison.com) Altro...

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CFIIMIKE
I'm always amazed by the opinions expressed in these type incidents. Any airplane on any surface without traction is a handful. I'm sure the crew did not intend to have this situation and did everything they could to save it after it got away from them. The most important thing is - no one was hurt!
Doobs
Dee Lowry 2
Hey...it's a common occurance. Plane can't stop at the end of the runway and slid off the prepared surface. Nose first. It's really a non-event...mostly inconvienent for the passengers.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
When this happens there are some required inspections that are required... But rarely show any damage...
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 2
So how did it get on the taxiway to slide off the taxiway after landing on the runway and running off the runway??? TURDS TURDS TURDS!!!
wx1996
wx1996 5
Yeah it is sad. It is all about the headline to get you to look. Facts are no longer important in the desire to get "Most Viewed". Delta Jet slides off pavement while taxing due to ice on taviway, would not get many views.
ljlintner
In this case, I don't think the headline is misleading. The first photo clearly shows a runway mandatory sign for 18/36 @ TWY A6. The aircraft is on the runway side of that sign. Now, looking at an airport diagram, TWY A6 is at the far South end of Runway 18, and the aircraft is further South of that. There is also a link to the ATC audio that accompanies the article. You will here the controller instructing DL to report when clear of the runway. When they did not, the controller inquired about their position and sent another aircraft around.
CHQpilot81
Runways are normally treated and maintained. Taxiways are not always.. An especially not all of them
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Dull ice skates?
rarebear14
Don't judge from our safe armchairs ! the crew did their utmost... Once you skid its almost impossible to get control back...
pweeden
pweeden 1
ATC audio of the event is here:
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/delta-385-slides-off-runway-at-kmsn/
LowOrbitTraveler01
Unfortunately winter time taxiways and ramps can be slicker than the runway. One winter taxiing into a gate at Montreal after making the turn in to the gate the ramp lights showed the tracked area to the gate to be glass ice. Testing the brakes verified marginal braking. Committed, I went to idle reverse on #2 engine on a 727 for docking.
rltusch
Reminded me of when landing at Escanaba airport in about 1953 on board a DC-3. It was snowing hard and the landing was proceeding normally until we got to the end of the runway. We then went through a barbed wire fence and into a corn field. Pilot gunned the motors, wheeled around and headed a back onto the paved landing strip---all the while I looked out the side window to see corn stalks flying past the window as we cleared the field and made our way back to the terminal. This little event did not slow down the trip on to Houghton,Michigan.

[This poster has been suspended.]

CHQpilot81
No. They will Retain there jobs.. Shit happens
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
It is hard to tell what will happen... If the CVR & FDR sees nothing the crew did wrong then they should be ok. If only minor offense then they may get some extra training. If they totally screwed it up, get your applications ready.
CHQpilot81
Correct.
Doobs
Dee Lowry 1
Sparkie, check out the Cockpit/Tower communication. "Could not stop on the end of the runway and slid off the prepared surface". The nose was off the runway but the rest of the fuselage remained on the runway. End of story.
glabady738
Sounds like it wasn't really the pilots' fault.

[This poster has been suspended.]

glabady738
No. If the taxiways were attended to in the removal of snow and ice, the plane would be at some other Delta destination right now.
sparkie624
sparkie624 3
This may not be as cut and dried as it may appear... On a taxi way, we are assuming they were on the correct taxi way, and that they did not make a right turn. By the same token they could have hit some black ice that was not known to be in that area, or they could have just been taxing too fast.

I remember along time ago, I was taxing a 737-200 from the gate to the hangar for over night maintenance. the taxi ways looked perfectly clear, but when I went to make my last turn into the maintenance ramp the plane continued to slide straight forward even though I had the nose wheel turned to 70 degree max angle... thinking quickly I stopped the plane with Thrust Reverses. I ended up having to taxi all the way to the end of the runway/taxiway area to have enough area to turn around. Nose Wheel Steering totally in effective and have to steer and break with combination of Diferrential Thust/TR's/Differential TR's. Once I did get back to the hangar the tug could not get enough traction to pull me in, and when I returned to idle thrust due to the ramp angle the plane would just slide back. I had to taxi the nose wheel literally into the hangar and hold above idle thrust just to keep from rolling back while they hooked up the tug. Do keep in mind that the plane that I was taxiing was much lighter than most pilots would ever taxi. I was at MIN fuel because of scheduled work on an INOP fuel qty. It was me and one other mechanic on the plane with less than 1000 lbs of fuel total onboard. That is not much for a 737.
glabady738
I'm starting to wonder if planes hitting black ice at airports is a common thing.
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
It is not incredibly common, but it does happen.

[This poster has been suspended.]

RRKen
Is one going to sit on the runway til Operations Forces come out and cleared the taxiway to dry pavement? Of course that depends upon the fact that the crew could even see the actual conditions on the taxiway. Those bloody things do not stop on a dime.

And given the conditions that day, if the crew really wanted to be ultra safe, they could have turned around and headed back to MSP if they saw even one snowflake. That way they eliminated the potential of an incident.
THRUSTT
THRUSTT 1
I did it today, I took it to the ramp...
sparkie624
sparkie624 0
I disagree... If you are sliding out of control, you are not in control. Have you ever hit black ice.
glabady738
It's true you're not in control. I know someone who died as a result of an accident caused by black ice, and he fought for control.
atreznik
atreznik -4
There is no such thing as black ice on a concrete runway surface. Please go back to "saving the day on the 747" on your flight simulator 1998, and leave the 121 discussion to those of us with actual time in transport category aircraft in cold weather ops.
sparkie624
sparkie624 4
In case you have not noticed, not all runways and taxiways are concrete. By your comment, I can certainly over look any state that you make, as I am sure it will not be of any relevance or from an educated value... One day when you get to fly with the Big Boys, you may have to call me for help, I work one of the desks that you may call in for because you spilled your cup of coffee down into your Comm Panel, or FMS, or the guy who accidentally deployed his ADG or RAT.
atreznik
atreznik 0
Look at the wx, notams, runway analysis, & afd for MSN. Concrete/grooved. Patchy, compacted snow.

Try to do a little more thorough preflight work. I know you are used to that being done for you on a silver platter, but you actually have to read it before you (or more likely the guy to your left) sign the log.

The public deserves a higher level of safety. This is 121. We're not just flipping burgers here.
joelwiley
joel wiley 2
Oh, thanks. You had me going there. For a bit I thought you postulated that runways had some sort of exemption from the laws of physics. I guess you meant runways were less likely to be affected by freezing by design.
preacher1
preacher1 2
Well, my 2cts worth. The term "BLACK ICE" in my mind is a generic term for any ICE formation across a hard surface of some kind and makes no difference on the type of surface, whether concrete or asphalt. Just like on a roadway. you can have freezing rain before a snowfall, in which case, snow removal on a runway will expose the ice but not necessarily clear it, or, you could have a runway cleared of snow and a partial melt, with melt water running back over the runway and refreezing at night, in which case, early morning folks may get a dose of it. Aircraft weight may make a difference but is not necessarily a free pass. It's still slick.
atreznik
atreznik 0
Therein lies the problem. It's too generic of a term. "Black ice" is the excuse label slapped on when Cletus slips off the perfectly smooth Georgia asphalt road because he was traveling too fast for the conditions.

Inexperience & lack of caution = time to make excuses.

Too many armchair warriors on here thinking every asphalt runway in America is subject to the same freeze/thaw cycle or plow/salt/melt/freeze cycle as their road to the store.

MSN, like many locales north of the persistent snow line, doesn't have much of a problem with fzra, pl, fzdz, etc this time of year, as does northern GA, TN and KY. There is a giant difference manoeuvring an aircraft around on the airport surface on a glazed surface vs compact snow.

Notice how I haven't said anything condemning the crew, as no one should be quick to judge.

But when laypeople come out the woodwork and use terms like black ice, tarmac (apron), runway (taxiway), it's apparent they have no idea what they are talking about, and it doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion.
preacher1
preacher1 6
Well, I would kinda agree with that but an abundance of caution is due in those conditions, whether it is Cletis going to the store or an ATP in big iron. You came jumping in here as God's gift to the aviation world, saying there was no such thing as BLACK ICE, and really talking down to folks that you had no inkling of their background. Not taken real good by folks that have been around here for awhile. You might need to think about putting the brain in gear before you let your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird a**.
wx1996
wx1996 3
Black Ice is generally a term used in the USA to identify unexpected glare ice. And most commonly seen on asphalt so it appears black. You state "There is no such thing as black ice on a concrete runway surface." Are you really saying there is no such thing as unexpected, not forecast, and not reported glare ice forming on a runway?

What about actual conditions that are worse than imagined based on the all previous planning and reports. After all weather can make rapid unexpected changes.

A plane parked at the gate, engines off, in the chocks. So the weather conditions can not change and cause something unexpected or not forecast because your are doing 121 cold weather ops?

Have a look at this starting at about 55 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arCIl_2kw8U


Were you ever a person that dreamed of flying someday in the future? A person taking your first solo? And maybe used a term that was not technically correct for 121 operations?

Is your purpose really to kill the dreams of those that wish they could advance to flying transport category aircraft? Just because someone used a common US English phrase to describe what they understood, you want to prove you superiority? As you are a transport category aircraft pilot I take it you were encouraged and educated on how to improve your skills. I doubt you would have made it to flying transport category aircraft if your were treated by everyone the way you treat others that have a dream and are still learning.

I bet you have more people on this blog dreaming of the future than those that use it for part 121 technical information exchange.
joelwiley
joel wiley 1
Interesting video. Would crampons on the chocks help?
preacher1
preacher1 1
By Gab, that was slick. I wonder how the ramp rats kept from busting their a**. LOL
sparkie624
sparkie624 1
Thanks for posting... Very interesting info.. Enjoyed the video
glabady738
Meaning that there would be no ice for the plane to slip on while it was taxiing to the gate. When it reaches the gate, the plane exchanges passengers and taxis back to the runway where it takes off to its next destination.
taylorcraftbc65
Brie Hill 1
This comment is aimed at several of you 121 pilots. There are MANY people out here, myself included, that really look up to you guys and gals. Now I realize that I am only a lowly G.A. pilot, both powered, and glider, but please folks, DON'T snipe at each other outside the pilot's lounge. Some of us "Children" might be listening.

[This poster has been suspended.]

taylorcraftbc65
Brie Hill 2
I never thought ANY of the 1231 pilots was "after" GA pilots, I was saying that for some of us GA pilots to see 121 pilots that as a group we held in extremely high regard as we were growing up snipe at each other can be a bit disheartening.
preacher1
preacher1 3
Never met a LOWLY GA pilot. Seems to me all of us were there at one time or other so don't put yourself down. As far as the sniping, I try not too but it gripes my tail for someone to come in holier than thou and put down a whole bunch of folks he knows nothing about. At that point, 2 wrongs will not make a right but the CHILDREN may just need to cover their ears.
Alamo1000
Alex Ohde 0
(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Delta 737 Slides Off Runway in Madison

MADISON (WITI) — Crews in Madison on Monday, December 16th responded to a call of a plane sliding off a runway at the Dane County Regional Airport.
Dane County Regional Airport officials say there are no injuries.
Officials say a Delta flight slid off the runway. Delta flight 385 landed around 4:00 p.m. Monday. Officials say the plane slid off the paved surface of the runway while taxiing. The plane — a 737, was inbound from Minneapolis. 60 passengers were on board. The airport was briefly closed after this incident, but was reopened after a short time.

http://fox6now.com/2013/12/16/crews-in-madison-responding-to-plane-that-slid-off-runway/

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