NORAD F-15s intercept unresponsive TBM 700

Sadly, once a pilot is hypoxic to the point of slurred speech, it takes a few minutes of 100% Oxygen right away to bring him/her back to rational thought.

Dropping to even FL120 will not help much. A slow decompression, depending on the cause, will likely result in a slow recompression. That is not very helpful. If you are a 35 year old, mountain biking pilot living in ASE at 8,000 FT ASL. You can probably recover at a cabin pressure of 14,000 feet.

A 60+ pilot living at sea level -- was doomed when he became hypoxic without 100% Oxygen in seconds. Euphoria rules your actions after that with bad results. "Everything is going fine"

The new TBM 900 has an "automated" pressurization system- no programming by the pilot. Automated? A loss of bleed air source is not always noticeable, cabin press is maintained for awhile in a small pressure vessel until it finally smoothly bleeds down and cabin alt slowly rises. Very subtle not overt like a cracked window-no ear bump. I believe at FL 280 the cabin would already be at 10,000 under normal operation. A single engine turboprop lacks the redundancy of a twin. Tooling around in a single engine pressurized civilian airplane in the flight levels sans a sealed mask fully on therefore introduces a new level of risk. Quick don masks? Gotta be quick. God bless these folks.

CNN at the top of aviation news reporting again!!!! Just one question to Brooke Baldwin, was it a JET or a prop plane?????

Este lamentable accidente de TBM 900 en jamaica , merece una investigacion total ¿porque sucedio esto? que dios lo tenga en sus gloria.

The "indication" he referenced may have been the cabin altitude climbing. Disbelief is a common first thought process. I think the cabin altitude at FL 280 is about 8000' at max diff. Might have tried to figure out what's going on without donning the mask immediately. I expect some new procedures when I go to recurrent at Sim Com next year. We always do an emergency descent in the sim but rarely talk about a slow depressurization event like this may have been. RIP Larry

TBM900 sales brochure. detailed performance charts and pictures of bleed air/environmental controller as well as a testimonial from Larry Glazer.
http://l.b5z.net/i/u/10113707/f/TBM_900_-_Comprehensive_Guide.pdf

This was a pilot that appeared to know this plane well. Was involved with the factory providing pilot feedback on requested improvements for this newest version yet was still undone by some sequence of events not yet fully understood. Recovering the aircraft to ascertain the state the flight deck control switches may be helpful but we may never know what combination of human factors and machine issues led up to this accident.

Hopefully this accident will get a detailed investigation of its likely causes. All of us have something to learn from accidents like this where 2 pilots that seemingly have good knowledge of their aircraft allow a sequence of events to unfold over time that apparently resulted in incapacitation of the pilots of a very modern and apparently flyable aircraft.

While we may never know, this sounds like a bleed air issue rather than rapid decompression or outflow valve issue. If the bleed air failed you should see a warning of such but cabin pressure would try to be maintained by the outflow valve leaving other slow leaks the major route for further loss of cabin pressure. You would also immediately start using up your available ambient oxygen and replacing it with CO2 but might not get an immediate warning of high cabin altitude. This TBM900 was brand new and cabin leaks from fittings and door seals still relatively tight. not sure if door seals are pneumatic or not but if so, these may have starting leaking with loss of bleed air though not necessarily right away. Another indication it was a bleed air issue is the windows frosting over as bleed air heats the cabin and windows eventually frost up without it, though again not right away . At 280 you have very little time to recognize the issue and don your masks. If you don't recognize a problem and do it quickly you can be looking at it and not remember how to put it on. Unfortunately bad things sometimes happen to good people. My condolences to the family.

CNN should stick to news about wars, politics, etc. not aviation. we all know how bad they covered mh370

CNBC confirmed through a family attorney that it was the owner, Larry Glazer and his wife Jane on the plane. Thoughts and prayers with the Glazer family and friends. Such a shame.

Fascinating conversations people, trouble is that only a couple of folks have hit the nail on the head. One, being the F-102 pilot. People flying high performance airplanes like the F-102 NEED to attend altitude chamber classes to be able to understand high altitude physiology and how each person reacts physically to the loss of pressure at the higher altitudes. During Air Force flight training, the fledgling pilot is subjected to classes held in the chamber at around an altitude approximating 25,000 feet. Each pilot has a "buddy" to assure that WHEN he loses consciousness, the buddy will place his O2 mask in place on him. At that point, the pilot is UNABLE to save himself. He thinks everything is OK and he is not too far from EXPIRING. The real problem is not the percentage of oxygen in the air, it is the pressure. Sufficient pressure must be available to have the O2 transfer from the lungs into the blood and thence to the brain. Pilots flying these machines NEED TO GET EDUCATED. Declare an emergency and take the lower altitude pronto. Remember, the ATC guy is sitting in an air-conditioned room at SEA LEVEL (or there about).

I believe hypoxia is quit apparent. I listened to the audio clip numerous times. The pilot sounds crisp and sharp with his communications initially, but just after requesting lower to FL18, he starts missing ATC calls. The last words from the pilot were completely unintelligible. ATC cleared him direct to Taylor and to FL20 and he (with slurred speech) responded "KN 900KN". He was responding with only a crisp and clear "KN".

When I listened to the LiveATC audio, two things really struck me: 1) wow that was fast; 2) "we have an indication that is not correct in the plane".

Only 2m33s elapse from the initial request for lower from the aircraft, and the first recorded acknowledgement of it's clearance for FL200. Two previous instructions had been complied with before this point (descend FL250; LT 30-deg for lower), and the present clearance to continue to FL200, though acknowledged, was never complied with (nor a following clearance DT TAY VORTAC). Two-and-a-half minutes of /useful/ consciousness was all we witnessed. Over the next 50 seconds we hear how rapidly the hypoxia was degrading the pilot, as it begins to sound slurred and is slow off the transmit button.

My CFI and various info resources have always warned how quickly hypoxia can take you from normal to talking but non-functional to unconscious. This was a harrowing demonstration. Both the controller and the pilots aboard realized too late how dire the situation was.

I cannot fault the controller at all, however. For all he knew, the pilot was busy managing a situation, the nature of which was unclear. If you were alert to the slurred speech (and you'd have to be listening for it...so an armchair analysis is a bit unfair) you might have declared an emergency for him then, but clearly at this point it was already too late, as the pilot never left FL250 to take up his new clearance. Poor controller I am sure could use a little psych counseling and a couple of weeks off. If I were in his shoes and such was offered to me, I would welcome it.

To point (2), the pilot on the radio seemed perhaps in disbelief about the situation. I am to understand this was a new aircraft, big money. Perhaps he resisted the notion that his freshly delivered shining baby was already broken in a life-threatening way. It is almost as if he /knows/ he must descend, yet at the same instant is feeling really put out by that fact. There may have been a little mental debating, "how long has /this/ been like /that/?!", maybe messing with his priorities by suggesting that if they weren't unconscious /already/ with the cabin alt. gauge reading like that...maybe it's not telling the truth.

I my mind, I can clearly hear myself reading the Peter Garrison "Aftermath" column on this one.

Taylor is a VORTAC in north florida

On another note: From what I have read about this pilot and his wife co-pilot, they are fine people that have contributed much to their community in Rochester, NY, and leave a fine, but understandably sad, family.

I dare say, that we will all die, and for a pilot, this way to die is not the worst way to die.
Godspeed.

So sad to hear what happened to this flight. If you suspect Hypoxia, declare an emergency and get lower fast! RIP

I have taken the train to the summit of Pike's Peak. At 14,000 feet, I could only stay about an hour before I began to feel weak, hazy and tired. I knew I had to go back down. The workers in the gift shop and restaurant were unaffected. They were acclimated just like people who live at high altitudes in Ecuador. As a former USAF pilot, I've done the altitude chamber twice. I know first hand how no oxygen at 25,000 feet will affect you. It has much to do with your age, physical condition and how healthy your blood is. What was this pilot's physical condition? Did he know the warning signs? Was he a smoker? What was he doing 24 hours prior to the flight? Why didn't he realize his problem sooner and declare an emergency and execute a rapid descent? These are all unanswered questions that may never be solved. Training and accepting the responsibility of being a Captain on your airplane would have prevented this accident. Declare, fly the airplane and paperwork be Damned! At least you're still alive to fill out that report.

OK, guys and gals--here I go again. Way back in the 60's the F-102 interceptor that I flew had a mask and oxygen system that gave the pilot (single seat) 100% oxygen UNDER PRESSURE all the time! We were supposed to wear the mask all the time, even at low altitude, because the mic was inside. Such was the thinking back then--just like the first astronauts had to be military pilots. Well, it didn't take me long to learn from the older pilots, turn the system off, just let the mask hang from one strap and turn my head into it to talk. However, I wore the mask at high altitude, takeoff and landing. We were so oxygenated that it would come out of solution in your blood into your inner ear and joints after landing. I would wake at night with blocked ears and have to clear them. Sometimes my elbows would ache. No hypoxia in that airplane!

Stuff happens and imo his critical mistake was not immediately declaring an emergency and executing a max rate descent.

When you back up and look at it a couple of things just jump out. Page through our monthly flying magazines and what is better than 50% of the ink used on? Stories about private pilot crashes. Then yoou look at another 25% or better is dedicated to "glass cockpits" and automatic gizmos and bling in new airplanes - or, for a few thousand you can add this to your airplane and it lets you think you're flying a 777! One problem-lots of time playing with electronic gadgets and not much time really flying. How much real "need" is there for all the bling. Seems like DC-3's actually flew passenger routes and they didn't even have iphones that doublled as a co-pilot. What I think make GA dangerous are monsters we've hatched.

Crashed in Jamaica. R I P

Found some audio... ZTL check-in around 3 minutes in. http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgso/ZTL-GSO-Sep-05-2014-1400Z.mp3

Here's a visualization of the flight route in Google Earth, derived from FlightAware Track points....

http://thogt.org/ge/N900KN_KROC-KAPF-20140905.kmz

One thing that I'm having trouble with in this case is the fact that it was reported the plane was being tracked by U.S. and Cuban assets, with the U.S. supposedly picking up the tracking after it left Cuban airspace. Yet no one has been able to find the debris? Shouldn't they know the exact location of where the aircraft lost engine power and began its likely rapid descent to the water?

I can possibly see them not entering Jamaican airspace, but Jamaica clearly didn't have the resources to send a fighter to track the aircraft so wouldn't the U.S. have been able to continue the pursuit? Cuba even opened their airspace to U.S. search and rescue/recovery aircraft. I can't imaging Jamaica wouldn't have.

Day 3 and not finding anything means all the answers are now at the ocean floor where it went down, assuming any of the answers could be obtained with the debris of a high angle impact with the water.

Here's the flight:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N900KN

There are new landing gear, pressurization, and alternator systems as well. The landing gear lever illuminates when the hydraulic pump is running, and when the gear fail to extend. Pressurization is all automatic, and only requires entering the destination airport’s elevation—which can be called up automatically when
the destination is entered on the MFD’s flight plan page. Also new is a 100-amp standby generator.

from http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/April/Pilot/1404p_t_tbm.aspx

I would like to thank all the rated and knowledgeable pilots who responded to this tragedy, it gives pilots like myself a keen insight to a complex aircraft like the TBM-900.

Nice job

Anything can happen in any aircraft. The pilot/crew must always be prepared to cope. In this TBM900 the pilot had plenty of warning and indication of his problem. Mask, declare an emergency, start down, and this becomes an event instead of an accident. May we all learn. RIP Mr. & Mrs. Glazer.

The controller should have known that the pilot would not have made such a request unless there was an emergency. Hope the controller can live with his failure to ask questions. When I worked as a controller we were aware of how pilots don't like to declare an emergency until the last minute.

Looks like the owner/pilot got this plane in March and has a ton of experience in TBMs. http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainalerts/2014-03-27/daher-socata-delivers-1st-tbm-900-plans-us-expansion

The destination is now listed as "TADPO." Does anyone know what that is?

It's a new TBM-900. Shall be interesting to see what happens from this. Won't be good news for these new 900's if they have pressurization issues.

After reading this post I though I would learn a little bit more about this aircraft, no I did not now the "M" in TBM Came from Mooney.

in any case I came across an interesting video on You Tube involving a TBM as well that might have some parallels here basically echoing many of the comments here. Don't delay! Declare! Get to a safer Place!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JkLR_xgayM

Very interesting---the FAA registry shows this A/C be a NEW TBM 700.

Must be a typo. The only new TBM is a 900.

Obviously, this is where all the confusion has arisen.

If the pressurization loss was from the newly designed pilot door, Socata is in for
some serious re-design of their new design!!!

Looks like it just ran out of fuel.

Just curious---a TBM 700 is NOT NEW-- production ceased in 2005

the TBM 850 succeeded it until just recently.

The TBM 900 is now the new production model with a newly designed pilot door(standard now
vs optional previously) and winglets, plus other new improvements.

So, what really was the Model # of the aircraft???

The audio file with KN around 6:30 and on where they did not respond to descent instructions. Repeated calls from Center to KN and no response at about 11:00

So here is a completely speculative course of events that is but one of many that might explain what occurred. Flying along at 280 the pilot feels a pressure bump drawing his attention to the cabin altitude display? Its abnormally high but mostly stable and still within breathable limits. What has happened?

If he misinterprets this as a cabin door leak (a past known issue), rather then a bleed air failure, his sense of urgency may not be what it should. With hypoxia now quickly setting in his ability to reevaluate his conclusion is disappearing with it.

What I think we need to be considering is not why the pilot failed to act, he did act and set about a process to get lower. Rather it is just that his actions were incorrect for whatever the actual issues were and the only question is why he didn't seem to understand that fact?

Just reporting that it crashed on Jamaica.

Jamaican officials say unresponsive private US plane has crashed on island, @AP reports; Coast Guard says 3 believed to be on board

another oxygen problem no doubt.

Off the coast of the island.

Well, I think we'll just beat the holy hell out of this one! Opinions are like aholes - everybodys...

Please explain the physics of the frosted windows. My experience with compressed gases is from scuba diving.
When you compressed gas into a bottle it really heats up. When you breathe the air from a bottle is extremely dry and cold. How does the "oxygen bleed" or rather lack of, frost the Windows? Bleeding compressed gas into the cockpit should drop the tempature; the reverse should heat the cockpit – that is the loss of a negative heat source. It must have to do with high humidity and a drop in temperature. I would sincerely like to know the science involved. Thanks, Henry Jordan

Debris found.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746154/Rescuers-wreckage-plane-NY-real-estate-developer-wife-crashed-Jamaica-flying-1-700-miles-unconscious.html

Do you think the pressurization problem could have been caught and fixed by the ground crew?
2 lives lost in this almost-new, $3M+ aircraft. You know this should never have happened.
(And it's happened before, hasn't it?)

(CNN) -- The U.S. military Thursday launched a pair of jet fighters to trail a small aircraft that was unresponsive over the Atlantic Ocean and headed towards Cuban airspace, NORAD said.
Two F-15s were flying with the plane east of Florida. The windows, according to a NORAD spokesman, were frosted and it was unknown how much fuel was left.
NORAD was in touch with Cuban authorities via the U.S. Coast Guard. The U.S. military jets will not enter Cuban airspace, a NORAD spokesman said.
The Socata TBM-700 light business and utility aircraft departed from Rochester, New York, with a flight plan to land in Naples, Florida, NORAD said. But the plane's occupants did not respond to communication attempts.

When a pilot asked to descend at FL 280 because he has a problem. The response should be "cleared to 10,000 immediately" not "in the works." Perhaps the FAA should put controllers through the altitude chamber.

sadly all of this is speculation at this point..the plane ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean off jamaica..fighter jets who were scrambled earlier before cuban air space saw the pilot slumped over the controls,and later reports stated the windows were iced over,indicating the no oxygen theory..cnn reported this was a brand new aircraft,and the pilot and his wife were on board...

I'm sorry but if you have a problem at altitude declare.. sort out the paperwork later. Get it down to a relatively safe altitude to sort things out. It's unfortunate this accident happened, even more so because it was yet another that was preventable.

This is IMHO another good reason why owners should fly with a second pilot, and all high performance/high altitude flights should be conducted with two pilots.

Flying in altitudes where you will need oxygen if you lose pressurization should be regulated to require two pilots. Perhaps with two pilots the situation would have not escalated this far.

14 miles off San Antonia, Jamaica....
Water looks to be about 8-9,000 feet deep. Anyone going to go looking?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/09/05/norad-fighter-jets-escorting-business-plane-naples/15132465/

As a man who just began his flight training and has only 6 hours logged, i dont see how the pilot could be so complacent. You spent tens of thousands of dollars on an aircraft that you trust to move you safely through the air, but when it gives you an emergency notification it must be incorrect? I think any PIC regardless of expirience would trust the indication and work to rectify the situation immediately.

I heard multiple controllers and different flight crews try to call him on Guard today. No response lasted about an hour before I heard the fighter come on and ask him to rock his wings to acknowledge, then told him to put oxygen on if he had it on board. Very sad

Wreckage found by Jamaican Defense Force

I believe it's actually one of the first new TBM-900s.

Did pilot attempt to put on emergency O2 mask?
We'll see if the wreck analysis can answer this.

2 on board. Larry Glazer and his wife. Not sure if bodies were found. There will be a press conference at 5:30pm by the JDF

روعه وانشالله تطور افضل

I was just looking thru this report and it is amazing the way people are with attitudes and languages. Some do not even know the actual history of the United States since they were driven like robots by a fallen school system that instructed many with lies and deception including the wrongful approach to rightful and wrongful pride. Anyway since 1654 the language at Zearith Israel in New York City has been Spanish, Portuguese = Ladino. English is available via headphones for those that want to hear the services in English.

George Washington the First United States President was a Hispanic and his ancestors were King Ferdinand and King Phillip of Spain whom launched the Spanish Armada against the English Channel to bring the Spanish Empire power down because of Rome and Roman Catholism. They all descended from Sancha da Ayala of Toledo Spain whom was also later from England after her relocation to England still claiming the throne of Toledo Spain. That is where you hear often the expression Holy Toledo. Most European Royals also are descendants of Sancha and some of the most prominent United States families. The comments that someone made in here were in Spanish and by no mean should be welcome with such insanity or language problem. The number one world economy almost today is China not us the USA. Soon we will not have even a USA dollar and there will be another currency. Emma Lazarus an American whose poem is inscripted at the base of that statue in New York City was a Spanish = Sephardim Yew by the way. Those whom were welcome here thru their ancestors should not be so ignorant of these facts today by the way.



http://shearithisrael.org/content/congregational-history






This is what Mr: Jose Yapur a person unknown to me wrote in Spanish :

jose yapur about a day ago 4 DownvoteUpvote
Este lamentable accidente de TBM 900 en jamaica , merece una investigacion total ¿porque sucedio esto? que dios lo tenga en sus gloria.

This is the translation of what Jose Yapur wrote in Spanish:

The individual Jose Yapur wrote a day ago the following: This lamentation of accident of the TMB900 in Jamaica deserves a total investigation. What was the cause of this accident ? May God keep him in his glory.

with that many hours in type it's hard believe pilot error in something as basic as environmental. Are there any reported problems with the 900's? I really hope they can raise these guys before they hit bingo fuel.

How many on board?

Planefinder is still tracking the plane looks like the turned around


http://planefinder.net/flight/N900KN

As I recall Payne Stewarts situation was they lost pressurization but the emergency oxygen bottles were serviced with nitrogen, correct?

Dummy meant a Jet.Prop. plane.
Jamaica news reports the pilot contacted Cuba after getting sick on the flight but they denied him a landing! What about Guantanamo?
Just saying!

It's a conspiracy to take out Gitmo....

Wasn't Payne Webers issue also the O2 bottles had nitrogen and not O2?

(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

US Plane with Unresponsive pilot crashes off coast of Jamaica

The Single Engine TBM-900 Aircraft was travelling from Rochester, New York to Naples, Florida.The unresponsiveness spurred NORAD to dispatch two F-16 fighter jets set from McEntire Joint National Guard Base in Richland County, South Carolina, to investigate. NORAD said another pair of fighter jets out of Homestead, Florida -- F-15s -- took over around 11:30 a.m. and escorted the plane as it continued south past the U.S. mainland.After a long ordeal, It crashed 14 miles off the northeast coast of Jamaica.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/05/us/norad-air-threat/index.html

(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

Plane with unresponsive pilot crashes off Jamaica

KINGSTON, Jamaica (AP) — A private U.S. plane with an unresponsive pilot crashed into the ocean north of the Caribbean island Friday after a journey of more than 1,400 miles.

http://news.yahoo.com/fighters-scrambled-pilot-fails-respond-172057761.html

(Duplicate Squawk Submitted)

TBM owner’s group chair crashes after becoming unresponsive

TBM Owners and Pilots Association chairman Larry Glazer and his wife Jane were on board an airplane that crashed off the coast of Jamaica after the pilot became unresponsive Sept. 5, the couple’s family confirmed to NBC News. The two are presumed dead.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/September/05/TBM-pilot-unresponsive?WT.mc_id=140907special&WT.mc_sect=sap