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Mark See
Photo stolen from http://www.10tanker.com/stillsvideo.html

This is your first upload to the site. If all you were planning on doing was copying and pasting other people's photos from the web then you are wasting your time and you have no business being on this website. It's for genuine photographers who actually take photos.
I do not think Mike Sutherland
I was in California when this photo was shot...........5 years ago and the guy who shot it was not Mike Sutherland
Jim Newton
The copyright issue aside; I am still on my quest to get CAL FIRE and the Forest Service to review the information I have sent them about retrofitting one of the C-5M airframes for aerial attack. The TOT and offload FAR surpass that of the DC-10 and they are air refuel capable. Only a refueling racetrack and additional receptacle are needed to create a platform which could, in may cases, eliminate a fire with just one pass.
Jim Newton
The copyright issue aside; I am still on my quest to get CAL FIRE and the Forest Service to review the information I have sent them about retrofitting one of the C-5M airframes for aerial attack. The TOT and offload FAR surpass that of the DC-10 and they are air refuel capable. Only a refueling racetrack and additional receptacle are needed to create a platform which could, in may cases, eliminate a fire with just one pass.
Mark See
Jim, as a native Californian I would love nothing more than to see a C-5M out fighting fires but as with anything I think the issue for them comes down to what I call "money right now". Even if this option would save money down the road, it's the cost of switching right now that will turn them off to this idea. I don't know what a used C-5M would go for, if they could even find one but that plus the retrofit would be extremely expensive for them. In my opinion I think that they will continue to use the DC-10s until they simply can't fly anymore but then maybe when that happens and they are forced to switch this is something they will look in to doing as there aren't a ton a firefighting planes that can carry that much water/retardant.

I see on your profile that you have a Private and IFR. Just wondering where you took your lessons and where you fly out of now? I got my license at Corona Airport and now rent Cessnas from there and Cherokees at Chino airport.
Jim Newton
Mark, I certainly hope so. I remember sending in emails and faxes advocating the use of used commercial aircraft, and was elated to see the DC-10 come on line. I don't know what happened to the 747-220B that Evergreen, Inc. was testing. I think its offload was around 14,000 gallons. I knew the issue would come down to money as you correctly point out. I am former USAF and remember doing the aeronautical calculations on this. If TFR and night vision capability were added to the DC-10 fleet, that would allow more TOT for night drops as well. I can honestly say that if I won the lottery, I would fund this project myself.

Do you remember Martin Aviation at KSNA? That's my "airport home now".
Mark See
I know KSNA very well from "spotting" there and I have flown in as well during my flight training but I haven't been back since getting my license. It was one of the most fun airports I flew to because of getting to see the jet traffic up close but my favorite airport is SBD because of the assortment of unique planes they service on a regular basis (I've seen everything from a 737-200 to MD-80s to DC-10s, and it changes every time so it's kind of like visiting a new airport each time). The majority of photos on my FA page come from SNA with some from the Martin Aviation parking lot and just earlier this morning I uploaded a photo shot from the Signature ramp and got the Martin Aviation sign in the background. I try and get to SNA at least once a week to watch and photograph.

They sure could have used an aircraft with more offload for the Big Bear fire earlier this summer. I wasn't following it too closely as I was really busy but I'm assuming they were using the DC-10s to help put it out. What I can say from a pilot's point of view is I would love to have bigger planes fighting these fires to get them out sooner because that TFR over Big Bear was up for an incredibly long amount of time. Luckily I didn't need to fly that direction during that time.
Jim Newton
I took a look at your page and saw an aircraft I have not seen in a long time. That is the Aero Commander, though it was missing both #1 and #2, that picture brought back some memories. So did your shot of the Lear 25. Several of those were made into USAF aircraft and when traveling across the country on USAF orders, it was possible to get on one of those. I have always like the shape and look of the Learjet's. Gulf's just do not impress me much. I would rank the Citation series next behind the Lear's.

I don't remember if the DC-10 was used during the Big Bear fire; I have only seen the aircraft live once, but it was too far away to get a good shot. By the course it was on, it must have been heading back to Travis for a retardant reload.

Since 2004, I have been a DFC Member of the Collings Foundation. I don't know if you have heard of them or not, but we fly three Vintage WW-II aircraft around the country every year on what is called, "The Wings of Freedom Tour. We have a B-17G, a B-24 (the last of her kind) and a B-25. I have been supporting the B-17G "Nine-O-Nine" since I became a member and have flown aboard her many times. I should upload some of those pictures to FA. I remember when I first learned that they don't make 115/145 any more and all B-17 owners are having to run those Wright's on 100LL. I remember first learning about the different colors once used for AG. Green, Red, Purple, Jet-A was always clear, etc. When I was in the USAF, I used to see JP-7 dripping from the "Sled" (SR-71). With such a high flash point, it was the only fuel which could be used for those J-58's. PPH used could be up to 44,000. A magnificent aircraft, the best Kelly Johnson ever came up with.
Jim Newton
A story about fuels: Do you remember when Bob Hoover crashed when someone fueled his Shrike with Jet-A? That, as I remember it, led to the nozzle shape of refueling vehicles being changed.
Mark See
Aero Commanders are one of my favorite types of airplanes because of the somewhat unique high wing twin design (this also makes the Dash 8s my favorite type of airliner). While there are fewer and fewer Commanders still flying today it makes me happy to know that there are still some that don't look like the one in the photo that I posted.

Regarding the DC-10, I have only seen them in person once as well while I was playing Golf with some friends so I didn't have my camera with me at the time.

I have heard of the Collings Foundation and I happened to be at SNA while they were there a few years ago and I had a lot of fun watching the planes takeoff and land (it had attracted a fairly decent sized crowd at the spot where I was watching from). You should upload those photos to FA, I think they would be great to see.

I am familiar with the Hoover accident and I actually just read an article about it and they named the new nozzle the "Hoover Nozzle". If that had happened to me I'm not sure if I would want them to name it after me.

My email is [email protected] if you want to keep talking so we don't take up more space here.
chalet
@ Jim Newton what is the point of the C-5M being air refuel capable if she has to land every time after dropping wáter and/or retardant, the economics are not there for such a monster, and not only that fires 99% of the time occur on hills, gorges and irregular terrain in general requiring quick maneuvering capabilities something that can not be done with the C-5M. Even the DC-10 on a fire fighting missión almost went down and crashed due to downdrafts. Last but not least what about main spar potential issues. Lockheed builds very strong planes yet the wings of least one maybe two C-130s folded as they were dropping retardant material and they were banned for life, were they not.
Jim Newton
My reconfiguration plan "includes" the addition of a second receptacle for retardant. The C-5M airframes have undergone a complete almost a C-Check upgrade - most notably the wing spars.

The DC-10 has been a successful platform, otherwise there would not be a fleet of, I believe 3, now.

As for the C-130 issue, a very large part of the CAL FIRE air tanker fleet is aging and the one C-130 which did lose its right wing was a high time aircraft. The loss of the one C-130 was a very sad commentary in itself. There is a YouTube video of the breakup and crash as well. My point here is that that aircraft was a "high time" airframe and CAL FIRE must update their fleet.

It was Kelly Johnson who showed us "Where there is a will, there is a way." Economics are a consideration, I do agree with you there, but take a look at the economics of the thousands and thousands of people who have lost everything due to these fires - it is horrendous and unacceptable.

Lastly, my proposal includes one of the two methodologies on VL air tanker support. Notably, "attack the fire before these fires create their own wind anomalies, such as downdrafts"

On which fire did the 10 Tanker Air Carrier almost go down; I have not seen a reference to that incident?
sam kuminecz
Jim, have you seen some of chalets photo and squawk comments? Just ignore him... He belongs on yahoo or YouTube...not FA
Jim Newton
Sam, I did take a tour of some of his squawks. He seems to have a problem with "N" Registration numbers and the like. Thanks!!

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